hydrogen - Page 3

Man this all sounds great, I've got a 454 TBI and I get 7 mpg, i'm really considering doing this conversion myself.  Are there ANY possible problems or issues that can come from this kit?  Long-term or short?  And also, i'm probably thinking the wrong way, but with hydrogen being more easily combustible and faster to combust, wouldn't you have to retard the timing more than factory settings? 

I'm really interested now... I wanna do this too...

In the book I bought, this generator creates two different forms of hydrogen; orthohydrogen which is the fast burning poerful gas and parahydrogen which is slower to burn. And because this system is adjustable, you just need to adjust how much of each gas is produced so that the engine acts normal without having to adjust timing or other things to avoid knocking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmack91z28

Man this all sounds great, I've got a 454 TBI and I get 7 mpg, i'm really considering doing this conversion myself.  Are there ANY possible problems or issues that can come from this kit?  Long-term or short?  And also, i'm probably thinking the wrong way, but with hydrogen being more easily combustible and faster to combust, wouldn't you have to retard the timing more than factory settings? 

 
In an engine that is fully powered by hydrogen, the spark is retarded or the engine will try to run backwards.  But on a hydrogen boost system, you don't need to retard the spark because the gasoline, having a much lower ignition temperature than hydrogen, will combust first.  Hydrogen is not more easily combustable, and you are only introducing a very small amount of hydrogen into the system if you want it to work correctly.  And yes, there are possible problems.  The first thing many people encounter is that the vehicle's computer will start making the fuel mixture richer when it sees the abundance of oxygen in the exhaust. and therefore their MPG actually goes down.

What kind of generator is it? Hydrogen atoms shouldn't be different either way... unless one way produces hydrogen atoms with extra neutrons.

To supplement my knowledge about it, I stuck some 3" long screws in a water bottle and positioned them until they were about 1/8" apart and then put some power to the screws by touching a 9v batter to the screws and it indeed produced bubbles.

In this generator there the two different forms of hydrogen are formed by different methods, the orthohydrogen is formed by the current flowing through the electrodes, and the parahydrogen is formed by a strong magnetic field created by a coil.

I don't think you'll have to mess with the timing much. You might have to advance it 1 degree, but thats still not going to make much difference.

If anyone could put up a diagram of what goes where that will be very helpful! I know how to produce hydrogen, but getting it to the engine is a different story.

When you produce the hydrogen a in a canister (like my aplication) or in a jar and the only way out is through a tube (meaning that the tube/jar is sealed with a tube coming out), when hydrogen is created it acts like any gas (it expnads). So if you just run the tube to your engine, the hydrogen will make its own way to the engine by way of pressure. Here is a diagram that was in the book.
 
 

different 02 sensors are required for TBI, i'll try find that link again for you

I was just about to ask about the 02 sensors, so i'll wait to hear back.  And thanks RonH for the clarity on timing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RonH


 The first thing many people encounter is that the vehicle's computer will start making the fuel mixture richer when it sees the abundance of oxygen in the exhaust. and therefore their MPG actually goes down.

 
So are you saying theres a chance I won't get better MPG?

Yes

I have another book that came as an extra when I bought the hydrogen book, it tells how to get past the computer issue. You have to build a box that you connect to the O2 sensor that you can adjust the signal to compensate for the extra oxygen. It does not say any thing about what you would need to do if you have more than one or two O2 sensors (luckily my truck only has one).

I have just found this out, you should not just run the hydrogen right into the intake! there needs to be some kind of regulator that regulates the hydrogen pressure in the system and a electric shut off so that when you trun the engine off all the pressured hydrogen doen't just flow right in to the engine causing a floaded situation. I am going with Impco Technologies, they have been making these kind of adapters for over 20 years and they have the setup I need for my 350.

This system went from a basic guaranteed gas saver to a complex half rigged-up money pit.  If you ask me.  Kinda sounds a little bit iffy. 

The guy talked to at Impco said that he gets like 6 calls a day for the parts to run hydrogen, and he has had multiple people order a couple kits to install multiple vehicles. And one of he costumers (who just ordered another kit) put one on his 2.25 ton truck (that was running diesel) and went form 7 to 15MPGs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: northey87

I have just found this out, you should not just run the hydrogen right into the intake! there needs to be some kind of regulator that regulates the hydrogen pressure in the system and a electric shut off so that when you trun the engine off all the pressured hydrogen doen't just flow right in to the engine causing a floaded situation. I am going with Impco Technologies, they have been making these kind of adapters for over 20 years and they have the setup I need for my 350.

 
Whoever told you that doesn't understand hydrogen.  It is very difficult to contain hydrogen.  It's the lightest element in the universe and has the smallest molecules.  Hydrogen won't just "flow" into anything.  It will escape at high velocity and disperse upward.  It takes a very secure container to hold hydrogen in, and an intake manifold is very leaky for hydrogen.  Under pressure, hydrogen will got right through thin walled PVC and many other substances that work fine for liquids and other gasses.

I guess we'll see what happens.

On all vehicles with O2 sensors you will need to add Electonic Fuel Injection Enhancer (EFIE) to each O2 sensor before the catalytic converter.  When you intoduce HHO to the engine it burns cleaner and the O2 sensor will pick up the extra oxygen going thru your exhaust, it will then tell the computer the engine is running to lean and to add more fuel.  Your comupter constantly tries to maintain a 14.7 :1 air fuel ratio but with an EFIE you can compensate for this by making your O2 sensor lye to your computer.

here is the website with the fuel enhancers
http://stores.homestead.com/hydrogengarage/Categories.bok?category=AIR/FUEL+MONITORING

Thats what my extra books shows, is how to build EFIE. I found this online earlier, I'm not going to get one but I thought I would throw it out there. It is supposed to replace the EFIE.
 
http://www.protiumfuelsystems.com/oxyisolator.html

Northey- I was talking to a manufacturer about this same issue this afternoon and he said the main reason that happens is because your system is producing to much hydrogen for that particular vehicle - he said if you go so crazy to try and put tons of hydrogen in it will trip the O2 sensor but if you build a system well matched for your car it should not set the sensor off.  He said he has only had a few with that problem.  But the EPA prohibits him from installing EFIE's on any vehicle.  That is the only part of the system I am concerned about.  Which site did you buy your books from?

I got the book from the link earlier on this thread. "run your car on water" or some thing like that. What I am going to do is build it, install it, adjust it, and see if it trips the O2 sensor. If it does then it means either more adjusting or installing an EFIE. I won't know till I get there. While I am installing all this, I am also going to install fuel/air ratio gauge to help with the adjusting, and to help let me know if something is going wrong.

Sounds good, fyi- I have an air fuel ratio guage on my truck already and it bounces all over the place.  I dont think it will help you adjust to well because the exhaust is constantly changing but maybe.  I just purchased some stuff to get started.

What kind of kit are you doing?